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A referendum gives the public a chance to vote in a straightforward way for a single issue, without it getting clouded by other issues. In representative democracy, you might want to vote for party A because of their policy on issue X, but you might disagree with their policy towards issue Y. Or you might like party A, but know that they're never going to get in, and vote for party B instead (in order to keep the Tories party C out). It all gets very complex.
With a referendum on Scottish independence, the people of Scotland would be given a chance to make our choice in a simple, fair manner, unclouded by other political considerations. But the Lib Dems don't want to give us that choice.
No, they say. The only way we're going to get a referendum is if over 50% of voters vote for the SNP.
I am sorely tempted to do so.
With a referendum on Scottish independence, the people of Scotland would be given a chance to make our choice in a simple, fair manner, unclouded by other political considerations. But the Lib Dems don't want to give us that choice.
No, they say. The only way we're going to get a referendum is if over 50% of voters vote for the SNP.
I am sorely tempted to do so.
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From:
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Yes, but this is a rather significant issue, and so I would reckon that the expense would be worth it.
> The wording of the question [and other details] make a significant difference to the response
The Lib Dems were in a position to have an important say in the shaping of the details of the referendum. They could have said "Yes, if...", and then made a whole list of conditions which would shape the referendum in a way less favourable to the SNP.
> And single-issue political campaigns are nearly always pernicious
I don't follow.
At the heart of it, the question is: if a majority of Scots want independence, why shouldn't they get it?
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Of course they should. That doesn't mean the SNP should be allowed to pretend 35% = 51%. If pro-referendum parties can't get a bill through the assembly, then there will be no referendum. It's not that onerous a threshold, and the parties are making their positions clear in advance...
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Because representative democracy isn't perfect, often the opinions of politicians differ from those of the people who they are supposed to be representing. I believe that Greenpeace is running a campaign citing this phenomenon at the moment, about Trident. (Not the chewing gum).
So I say again. If a majority of Scots want independence, why shouldn't they get it?
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no subject
I asserted that there has to be a threshold before holding a referendum, which I think is clear - otherwise we'd be voting every damn day of the week - and I also said that electing 50%+1 of MSPs who support a referendum is a good threshold to have. I said nothing about independence except that if 51% of Scots want it, they should get it. I realise very well that representative democracy isn't perfect.
I note that in 1999 the plurarilty of MSPS were against proportional representation for local elections, but the Lib Dems negotiated for and won that issue as the price of entering a coalition. That seems to me to be a more significant constitutional issue. What's the difference? If the Lib Dems sincerely think that a referendum would be a bad idea and also that independence would be a bad idea, and they say so in public and are elected on that basis, why should they not negotiate to enter a coalition on that basis?
If you think that a plurality of MSPs supporting a referendum is a good enough threshold, fair enough. But the SNP is centred around the proposition of independence and there is PR for the election of MSPs, so I really do think it's fair that if there's no majority in Pa rliament for a referendum then there will not be a referendum.
Incidentally I would like to apologise for saying assembly rather than parliament earlier - absence of mind. I suppose I could pretend that in making a purely procedural point I deliberately used a description that applied to any collection of representatives, but no.
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Your 35% versus 51% thing. The SNP are not "pretending", as you put it, that 51% of MSPs want independence. They are claiming that 51% of people want independence, which is an entirely different kettle of fish.
Had the Lib Dems agreed to a referendum, they could have formed a coalition government with the SNP, allowing them a far more powerful position. As it is, they've effectively sidelined themselves, having now ruled out coalitions with both main contenders.
Thresholds I think don't really come into it in this instance. Normally, no, a refendum should not automatically be given based on a plurality. But in this case, the SNP made an offer, and I think it was a reasonable offer. Ask the people what they want, and act on that. What are the Lib Dems saying by turning that down? That they don't trust the very people they are supposed to be representing? That they care more about their image in England than in Scotland?
And it's worth noting that a referendum is not guaranteed to favour the SNP's cause. I've already mentioned Australia, whose referendum on republicanism returned a "no", setting the republican cause back years.
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It does not seem useful or sensible to me that the more important the issue, the lower the threshold should be for getting to a referendum. All referenda are "asking the people what they want". Like I said, the SNP is organised around the core demand of independence, so of course they're going to try to negotiate to get to a referendum. Doesn't mean the lib dems are obliged to do anything to help them, particularly ask lib dems MSPs to vote against their platform and quite possibly their conscience.
If you want a referendum and that outweighs every other issue, vote *for* a party for independence. If not, not. But please don't vote *against* the lib dems for having a consistent policy of opposing independence and referendum both - and sticking to that policy in the face of the enormous temptation of power...
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Politicians have a right and responsibility to act on their conscience, yes. But voting against a referendum seems to me more an insistence on power for themselves, not the people who they are representing. (Which to a large extent means Lib Dem voters — who, the SNP have pointed out, are 88% in favour of a referendum.)
More generally, I don't think thresholds of numbers of politicians are that important. More important are the less quantifiable ones of importance to the country and strength of public opinion. It's still a call for politicians to make, of course; it can't be enshrined in any sort of law. But part of a politician's conscience must be to occasionally bow to public opinion, even when it goes against thier own.
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Bugger that. I want elected representatives to stick to the principles and platform on which they were elected. If 51% of the populace can't elect 50%+1 of MSPs who support a referendum (I note, again, that a form of PR applies to election for the scottish parliament) then that's just too bad - it doesn't impose any kind of duty on the MSPs whose manifesto was against a referendum, because their duty is to do their best as they see it and to fulfil the principles on which they were elected as best they can. So yes, the SNP are confusing the two, the more fools they.
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Look, you seem to be saying that a politician should doggedly stick to something despite the fact that the majority of the populace disagree, and despite the fact that a majority of their voters disagree.
They're entitled to do whatever they wish, of course. It's just that they're likely to lose quite a few of their voters if they do so — in this case, including myself.
I don't want to vote for the SNP. I certainly don't want to vote for the SSP or the Greens. Errr... what's left? Solidarity: *chuckle*. The Scottish Independence Party: the whuh? The Free Scotland Party: double whuh? The Scottish Jacobite Party: teh LOLz!
Where was I? Yes, I don't want to vote for the SNP. But the Lib Dems are leaving me little choice.
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gives a topical illustration of the influence of wording.
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I would like to see a referendum introduced by a coalition of pro- and anti-independence parties, since that would reduce bias towards one side or the other.